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Kim Lesley Hartman
Hartman Ornamental Confectionery and Pies
The 20 Minuters
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Posted - 2011.10.19 09:19:00 -
[1] - Quote
So far my judgement is that for lowsec and NPC null this going to be a negative change (people in wormholes and sov null should profit from greater control). When the dust settles a few months after the feature has been deployed I think that in lowsec we will see that minor local power blocks will effectively control the customs offices. And independent small pure industrialist entities will have no choice but to move their PI to hisec.
In Metro/Heimater where I know the situation best this will boil down to BANE, -EM- (+greater anti-pirate coalition) and some local FW powers.
Smaller entities, basically anybody that can't muster enough of a 24 hour around the clock presence to discourage bored cap pilots with no interest in local PI from shooting the customs offices or enough of cap force of their own to defend/repair them are **** out of luck and basically at the mercy of anybody that wants to **** with them.
It further affects the way that PI setups operate because if you want to export materials on one planet to import them on another (factory) planet you'll need at least guaranteed access to the factory planet (the export planets can always still launch into space if all else fails that will be tedious and no fun at all but at least it's an option). If I can't have that access guarantee on a factory planet in lowsec (unless I build a customs office that a pure industrialist has no way of defending), it makes hisec the best option, meaning that I will start exporting goods from lowsec to hisec something I was lead to believe CCP did not want to encourage, well then don't make me/us.
I think the change makes sense in wormholes and null, in wormholes the inhabitants can due to wormhole mechanics effectively control and defend them with a smaller group of players, in nullsec well sovereign space is called sovereign for a reason. But in lowsec and npc null it will simply force smaller industrialists out or force us into league with local PvP entities creating more powerblocs something I was also lead to believe CCP doesn't want
We'll have to see how it plays out but I urge CCP to reconsider applying this to lowsec and null npc, until after they have a good idea of the results in other parts of EVE as you can't really roll a change like this back (people will have invested in infrastructure by then). |
Kim Lesley Hartman
Hartman Ornamental Confectionery and Pies
The 20 Minuters
1
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Posted - 2011.10.19 11:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Great, so now someone who runs PI in a quiet low sec system on a small scale basis is screwed.
Now they have to put up PI structures within said quiet low sec system, with a "blow me up" sign on them.
Small scale low end PI in low sec is now dead for small corps.
Once again, CCP has developed something for the huge alliances, and screwed the little guy.
It is one thing to dodge the gankers in low sec to do PI, it quite another to fight alliances.
All hail the megacorps and mega alliances. A small corp living in a low sec system should be able to control some of the customs offices and reinforce any enemy customs offices in that system. What gives "the little guy" the right to fly his warp core stab fit hauler into a low sec system and milk the planets when he doesn't even live in that system, without paying for the privilege? If people are serious about continuing their PI business, they should be considering setting up in WH space or joining a corp that has the power to control a system. If you're not willing to do this then high sec PI is meant for you.
How about if the "little guy" lives in said (heavily pirated) lowsec system and has always managed to avoid said pirates by being clever (bookmarks of customs offices, cloaky/mwd occators etc)?
And I think you are missing a rather important point for most industrialists I NEED access to the plethora of corporate wallets otherwise administration, tracking cost/expense flow and auditing becomes a total nightmare so joining another corp isn't really an option.
Sure I could join an alliance but why exactly would a PvP alliance want me? And don't say; "So you can sell them those robotics for their POS at a discount!" Because you know what? If I start eating into my margins on that scale I can make as much in hisec without giving up any of my independence. Besides I can do without the drama that large PvP alliances seem to be riddled with.
What gives the little guy the right? His/her ability outsmart and dodge a much larger hostile force out to get him/her that gives them the right. This change means however I will now simply be denied access to the planets and no amount of cleverness will save me. That seems wrong to me.
p.s. if stabbed haulers bother you try a HIC.
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Kim Lesley Hartman
Hartman Ornamental Confectionery and Pies
The 20 Minuters
1
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Posted - 2011.10.19 12:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Kim Lesley Hartman wrote:
How about if the "little guy" lives in said (heavily pirated) lowsec system and has always managed to avoid said pirates by being clever (bookmarks of customs offices, cloaky/mwd occators etc)?
And I think you are missing a rather important point for most industrialists I NEED access to the plethora of corporate wallets otherwise administration, tracking cost/expense flow and auditing becomes a total nightmare so joining another corp isn't really an option.
Sure I could join an alliance but why exactly would a PvP alliance want me? And don't say; "So you can sell them those robotics for their POS at a discount!" Because you know what? If I start eating into my margins on that scale I can make as much in hisec without giving up any of my independence. Besides I can do without the drama that large PvP alliances seem to be riddled with.
What gives the little guy the right? His/her ability outsmart and dodge a much larger hostile force out to get him/her that gives them the right. This change means however I will now simply be denied access to the planets and no amount of cleverness will save me. That seems wrong to me.
p.s. if stabbed haulers bother you try a HIC.
Ps. And if you are a i PI guy living in low sec, i think you overestimate how badly these pirates want to catch you. If they really wanted you dead, they would find your planets and wait buy the customs office when the see you log. it's that simple.
You make a couple tacs of the customs offices and warp to those first hit dscan warp down if clear I only need to be there for around 5-10 seconds dependant on how much agility I fitted. Not many pirates wanna sit at a customs office 23,5/7. You ninja the PI when the pirates head out on ops which happily for me they do on the same days around the same times (yes indy's can gather intel too), guess when I collect my goo ^_^ |
Kim Lesley Hartman
Hartman Ornamental Confectionery and Pies
The 20 Minuters
21
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Posted - 2011.10.20 07:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
Having thought on this feature some more I think you could fix most of the concerns raised regarding lowsec and NPC null fairly simple. Do not give people the ability to deny people access to their POCO's there. Maybe do give them the ability of variable tax rates based on standing (though I realise that might be hard to code for).
My reasoning is this; your corporate wallet will show the transactions and thus you will have it timestamped when your enemies access the offices, want to deny them? Take action on that. But no easy you can't use this.
This way you don't shut the smaller entities out and owners will see more usage and thus better returns on their investment. And get the extra intel of when hostile indy's are active through walllet timestamps.
Irrelevant, but; also makes more sense from a story point of view lowsec and npc null are somebodies 'property' already. Them giving rights to people to exploit CO's seems possible. Them giving others total control over planetary in- and export does not. |
Kim Lesley Hartman
Hartman Ornamental Confectionery and Pies
The 20 Minuters
21
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 11:13:00 -
[5] - Quote
There is a good reason to deny others access to your POCO's even if you are not in null.
Multiple players extracting from the same resource pockets depletes them faster, at least according to CCP's own PI tutorial video.
So by locking out the competition I can have my hotspots last longer.
Add to this that for the first months after this is introduced in it's current form CO's in lowsec will be rarity and publicly accessible ones will be even rarer. Not only making them more likely to get 'camped' also resulting in a larger number of players using the same planets and thus depleting the pockets faster (further reducing the profitably compared to hi-sec).
Basically under the new system I am required to invest heavily in infrastructure that is more likely to be camped (risking a 100 million transport vessel, that would take weeks to earn back by itself). Share whatever resources are on the planet with more players further reducing my profit (cause lets be frank if I close the POCO I vastly increase the risk of it being shot at).
I still have to do the math but I think you may effectively be telling me to move to hi-sec and train a couple more PI alts on my accounts to make up the difference. Thanks for the extra grind of clicking for an extra hour each day I guess leaving me with less time to actually do 'fun' stuff. |
Kim Lesley Hartman
Hartman Ornamental Confectionery and Pies
The 20 Minuters
21
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 07:00:00 -
[6] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote:We all know the prices will go up, the taxes will go up, the ability to get product out will go down, cost of control will go up, and the risk of ships will go up.
Prices up = good for PI guys, bad for pos guys and indy guys. Demand falls of course. Pos's are retired being unprofitable.
Taxes up = good for Control guys, bad for PI guys. There goes PI profit.
Product logistics = risky to non-existant, bad for PI guys. Barring any other problem, if product is stuck, it is worthless.
Cost of control/ships = high. Bad for PI. Even if the fight for PI is worth it (high prices), the taxes are low, and the logistics is free, the cost of losing ships and buying the PI control center easily and quickly removes all profitability.
Let alone the effect on demand for retired POS's with higher fuel prices and for other indy activities.
If CCP can limit the maximum tax rate, prevent PI logistics disruption, and increase the amount of product the colonies can process and extract, this might work OK. Increases the product per colony will actually allow people to care (more ISK) enough to fight over it while helping reduce product cost so that the infrastructure which uses it doesn't collapse. If CCP wants more fighting over PI, increase the 0.0 yield and processing ability while decreasing HS product yield. Don't do anything else.
Problem with that is that once you push profitability beyond a certain point the powerblocs come in and put their foot down. Again forcing small or specialized industrialists to either give up their independence or go out of business. Which again is already the defacto situation in null and thus little will change.
I really don't think it would help EVE however if powerblocks would start controlling lowsec in the sameway, that won't hurt just industrialists that will also hurt smaller more nomadic pirate entities who by their playstyle bring a unique flavour to lowsec.
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Kim Lesley Hartman
Hartman Ornamental Confectionery and Pies
The 20 Minuters
21
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Posted - 2011.10.21 10:19:00 -
[7] - Quote
[edit]I typed this really wrong reply but then it wasn't there when I hit post[/edit]
Fix your forums CCP. |
Kim Lesley Hartman
Hartman Ornamental Confectionery and Pies
The 20 Minuters
21
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 11:24:00 -
[8] - Quote
Basically what I need to hear from the EVE PI team is this;
Why would an independent or smaller non- capital ship corp want to invest in PI in lowsec after the proposed changes?
Or infact want to use Customs Offices they don't control at all at tremendously increased risk to the present situation?
Let me put it simply as an industrialist my only concern is the bottom line. A black number telling me my profits.
Currently this makes Lowsec PI a good option because despite having to invest 100 million in an expensive hauler or two be able to effectively move stuff with a minimal risk of loosing said stuff the increase in yield over hi-sec is worth the extra risk. I expect to eventually loose a hauler but so far not being an idiot and good preparation means I've only ever lost as single Itty 4.
Under the new situation;
* I need to invest in an expensive structure that I can not defend, and if somebody shoots it I loose weeks if (more likely) not months in profit right there and then. And somebody eventually will shoot it even if I set the tax to 0%. If you really believe people 'will be reasonable' I'm not sure you are playing the same EVE I play. They won't be, never have been tears > everything esle, you run a MMO filled with hardcore griefers that's just the way it is.
* I can use a structure put up by somebody else, but by doing so I hand them valuable intel about the times I am active and access their structure, they can use this to destroy my 100 million ship (potentially it's cargo too) or hand this information to somebody else. MASSIVE increase in risk. Basically I just painted "PLEASE GANK ME" on my occator the moment I use somebody else's customs office.
* I run the risk of a previously open to me customs office getting closed and loosing my investment in the structures on the planet.
* There will be far less offices in space and thereby even without the time stamp issue it becomes easy for pirates to predict where they can catch juicy haulers.
What does this mean? My black number at the bottom line becomes a lot lower and potentially even turns into a red number (the latter option meaning i loose all my RL invested time).
Alternatively I train two extra PI alts on my account and move to hisec to compensate for the lower planetary yields and loose RL time in clicking an hauling on those accounts, but not as much invested time as I'd loose having to replace an expensive POCO or Cloaky/Stabby T2 Hauler.
I ask you which of these 2 options do you think an industrialist is more likely to pick? The risk free one with a guaranteed black number at the bottom line. Or the one with massively increased risks that he/she has no guarantee will make more and will potentially loose money?
Not exactly rocket science is it?
Just to be clear I currently run my PI in deep lowsec (5 jumps in) and live there, I'm not risk averse, I am also however not crazy. |
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